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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;don&#8217;t tell me what you value, show me your budget&#8221;</title>
	<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 01:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David Ernst chats with the World</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-40328</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ernst chats with the World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 05:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-40328</guid>
		<description>[...] had me incredulous, and now I&#8217;m thinking it&#8217;s finally time that I follow suit to Kynthia&#8217;s outing of herself and myself as being more libertarian than most of our close friends, and perhaps more Libertarian than [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] had me incredulous, and now I&#8217;m thinking it&#8217;s finally time that I follow suit to Kynthia&#8217;s outing of herself and myself as being more libertarian than most of our close friends, and perhaps more Libertarian than [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Blaylock</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33672</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Blaylock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33672</guid>
		<description>Are you familiar with Bernard Litaer and his work on complimentary currency models?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lietaer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you familiar with Bernard Litaer and his work on complimentary currency models?</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lietaer" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lietaer</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erik</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33593</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33593</guid>
		<description>I generally feel pretty good about a radical libertarian.  However, I object a little to the notion that socialists or communists are doing damage.

There are many ways to skin a cat.  You provide some good argument that money can be wielded.  Fine.  Good.  Go for it.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that people who distance themselves from wealth-wielding are doing damage.  What evidence do you have for that?

We, as a culture, have a hard time separating in our heads "I'm not going to do that" from "No one should do that".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I generally feel pretty good about a radical libertarian.  However, I object a little to the notion that socialists or communists are doing damage.</p>
<p>There are many ways to skin a cat.  You provide some good argument that money can be wielded.  Fine.  Good.  Go for it.  But that doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean that people who distance themselves from wealth-wielding are doing damage.  What evidence do you have for that?</p>
<p>We, as a culture, have a hard time separating in our heads &#8220;I&#8217;m not going to do that&#8221; from &#8220;No one should do that&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mom</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33588</link>
		<dc:creator>Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33588</guid>
		<description>One question is this.  When we are cooperatively standing in the way of exploitation and the police are called, whose side are they going to be on?
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/01/1435246</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One question is this.  When we are cooperatively standing in the way of exploitation and the police are called, whose side are they going to be on?<br />
<a href="http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/01/1435246" rel="nofollow">http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/01/1435246</a></p>
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		<title>By: kynthia</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33557</link>
		<dc:creator>kynthia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 05:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33557</guid>
		<description>i don't think any libertarian would argue that we don't have shared human values such as the well-being of other people and the planet.  they would just wonder why we need (or even why we would Want) to entrust the realization of those values to something as inefficient, distant from our everyday behavior, and entwined with power and politics as the national government.  libertarians love to cooperate and believe it to be a natural element of human interaction.  but cooperation and delegation are different matters. 

and i know this has been said so many times that it feels like a kneejerk copout, but it remains true that the only way that profiteers can succeed is if we buy goods that are produced under standards that we profess to abhor.  the problem with the current arrangement is not that government is not regulating enough, it is that we think it's their job to regulate rather than our job to pay attention.  i don't want my government to stand in the way of exploitation.  i want to do it myself.  i am drawn to libertarianism not because it says that we shouldn't work to realize our shared values, but because it says that indeed, we are the only ones who can.

values do not belong solely to the private sphere, but morally grounded collective action does not belong solely to the public sphere either, and to believe otherwise strikes me as tragic.  the government is not synonymous with collective action.  the government is carefully granted coercion, and it should only be entrusted with powers that we absolutely cannot wield on our own.  trade and environmental standards do not qualify.  you can say that companies are pillaging right now all you want, and you're right.  but the government right now is far from what any libertarian would endorse, so that's not fair.  acting in our own best interest is not at all synonymous with greed or profiteering, and that's where my mouth is when i want to put my money to match.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i don&#8217;t think any libertarian would argue that we don&#8217;t have shared human values such as the well-being of other people and the planet.  they would just wonder why we need (or even why we would Want) to entrust the realization of those values to something as inefficient, distant from our everyday behavior, and entwined with power and politics as the national government.  libertarians love to cooperate and believe it to be a natural element of human interaction.  but cooperation and delegation are different matters. </p>
<p>and i know this has been said so many times that it feels like a kneejerk copout, but it remains true that the only way that profiteers can succeed is if we buy goods that are produced under standards that we profess to abhor.  the problem with the current arrangement is not that government is not regulating enough, it is that we think it&#8217;s their job to regulate rather than our job to pay attention.  i don&#8217;t want my government to stand in the way of exploitation.  i want to do it myself.  i am drawn to libertarianism not because it says that we shouldn&#8217;t work to realize our shared values, but because it says that indeed, we are the only ones who can.</p>
<p>values do not belong solely to the private sphere, but morally grounded collective action does not belong solely to the public sphere either, and to believe otherwise strikes me as tragic.  the government is not synonymous with collective action.  the government is carefully granted coercion, and it should only be entrusted with powers that we absolutely cannot wield on our own.  trade and environmental standards do not qualify.  you can say that companies are pillaging right now all you want, and you&#8217;re right.  but the government right now is far from what any libertarian would endorse, so that&#8217;s not fair.  acting in our own best interest is not at all synonymous with greed or profiteering, and that&#8217;s where my mouth is when i want to put my money to match.</p>
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		<title>By: Mom</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33498</link>
		<dc:creator>Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 06:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33498</guid>
		<description>Okay.  Just one more and I promise I'm done for awhile.

Who says the job of government is to keep people from standing in other people's way?  In a libertarian worldview, the job of government is precisely and solely to stand in the way of those who would act to protect people and the planet from private profiteering.  That's what Major General Smedley was talking about when he said that his career was a soldier was all about making the world safe for profiteering.  He killed people in the name of freedom so that private industry could exploit the land that native peoples relied upon for their very lives.  Speaking for myself, I want a government that will stand in the way of those who would lock the most vulnerable members of society into sweatshops and "free trade zones" and claim that labor protection laws are an infringement of their liberty.  I want my government to stand in the way of those who claim to own the water and therefore have the right to profit from my thirst.  I want my government to stand in the way of those who would destroy the wetlands, clear cut the forests, level the mountains, drill in the Arctic and poison the soil, the air, and the water for nothing other than their own private gain.  I could go on but I know you get the picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay.  Just one more and I promise I&#8217;m done for awhile.</p>
<p>Who says the job of government is to keep people from standing in other people&#8217;s way?  In a libertarian worldview, the job of government is precisely and solely to stand in the way of those who would act to protect people and the planet from private profiteering.  That&#8217;s what Major General Smedley was talking about when he said that his career was a soldier was all about making the world safe for profiteering.  He killed people in the name of freedom so that private industry could exploit the land that native peoples relied upon for their very lives.  Speaking for myself, I want a government that will stand in the way of those who would lock the most vulnerable members of society into sweatshops and &#8220;free trade zones&#8221; and claim that labor protection laws are an infringement of their liberty.  I want my government to stand in the way of those who claim to own the water and therefore have the right to profit from my thirst.  I want my government to stand in the way of those who would destroy the wetlands, clear cut the forests, level the mountains, drill in the Arctic and poison the soil, the air, and the water for nothing other than their own private gain.  I could go on but I know you get the picture.</p>
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		<title>By: Mom</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33496</link>
		<dc:creator>Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 06:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33496</guid>
		<description>And, the framing of values as belonging solely (like everything else) to the private sphere is another bone I have to pick with libertarianism.  Of course, we each have our own values.  But our private individual values are not the basis of our public policy.  What counts when we are creating the institutions and workings of our government are the values we share.  Libertarians might say they are concerned with our shared values of liberty and certainly private property.  In other words, our shared values of leave me the hell alone and keep your hands off my stash.  I know I am prone to hyperbole in these matters but even stated more calmly I submit, that these are not sufficient values for the design of humane government and that most people actually share other highly pertinent values such as the well-being of other people and the planet.  Most people value very highly every opportunity to cooperate for the well-being of other people and the planet.  Few people value the experience of living in the dog-eat-dog world that values only private wealth and power.  Guess which few?   

Of course, I am picking out the things that I want to argue with.  I agree with very much of what you are saying and I particularly liked this:
 "money is a tool, and like any tool it is wielded most powerfully by those who are not afraid to grasp it with purpose. . . .  if we don’t take the time to learn such control, we place ourselves at the mercy of other’s protection in times of danger, and we open ourselves up to being fleeced in the process."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, the framing of values as belonging solely (like everything else) to the private sphere is another bone I have to pick with libertarianism.  Of course, we each have our own values.  But our private individual values are not the basis of our public policy.  What counts when we are creating the institutions and workings of our government are the values we share.  Libertarians might say they are concerned with our shared values of liberty and certainly private property.  In other words, our shared values of leave me the hell alone and keep your hands off my stash.  I know I am prone to hyperbole in these matters but even stated more calmly I submit, that these are not sufficient values for the design of humane government and that most people actually share other highly pertinent values such as the well-being of other people and the planet.  Most people value very highly every opportunity to cooperate for the well-being of other people and the planet.  Few people value the experience of living in the dog-eat-dog world that values only private wealth and power.  Guess which few?   </p>
<p>Of course, I am picking out the things that I want to argue with.  I agree with very much of what you are saying and I particularly liked this:<br />
 &#8220;money is a tool, and like any tool it is wielded most powerfully by those who are not afraid to grasp it with purpose. . . .  if we don’t take the time to learn such control, we place ourselves at the mercy of other’s protection in times of danger, and we open ourselves up to being fleeced in the process.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: kynthia</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33495</link>
		<dc:creator>kynthia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 06:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33495</guid>
		<description>well, i should definitely clarify that mostly?  for this post at least?  i am not talking about people who don't have money.  i am talking about people who have money but don't put energy into thinking about managing it.  

as for the government's job, yeah... this is the tricky part.  i don't think "the commonwealth" is something that can be designed.  the government's job is to keep people from standing in other people's way.  after that, it's up to us.  that is the fundamental brain shift.  and i know it sounds, well... dismissive, or intolerant, or arrogant, or blind.  

but it's not.  it comes from a place of deep respect. and with a full awareness of the difficulty.  i know you disagree, but as i said when you were here, this is only the beginning of me figuring out how to talk about it, so on we go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, i should definitely clarify that mostly?  for this post at least?  i am not talking about people who don&#8217;t have money.  i am talking about people who have money but don&#8217;t put energy into thinking about managing it.  </p>
<p>as for the government&#8217;s job, yeah&#8230; this is the tricky part.  i don&#8217;t think &#8220;the commonwealth&#8221; is something that can be designed.  the government&#8217;s job is to keep people from standing in other people&#8217;s way.  after that, it&#8217;s up to us.  that is the fundamental brain shift.  and i know it sounds, well&#8230; dismissive, or intolerant, or arrogant, or blind.  </p>
<p>but it&#8217;s not.  it comes from a place of deep respect. and with a full awareness of the difficulty.  i know you disagree, but as i said when you were here, this is only the beginning of me figuring out how to talk about it, so on we go.</p>
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		<title>By: Mom</title>
		<link>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33472</link>
		<dc:creator>Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kynthiabru.net/blog/archives/427#comment-33472</guid>
		<description>As you know too well, I'm one who is suspicious (to put it mildly) of libertarian philosophy.  

Here's just one place my flags went up. "if we think money can do some good, let’s shut up and work on getting our own; if we really don’t think money is the answer, let’s stop asking for people to give it to us"

It perpetuates the notion that the only people who don't have money are those who aren't working for it and that any one is a lazy, whiny, irresponsible baby who thinks that government's job is the protection and building of the commonwealth rather than private wealth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you know too well, I&#8217;m one who is suspicious (to put it mildly) of libertarian philosophy.  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s just one place my flags went up. &#8220;if we think money can do some good, let’s shut up and work on getting our own; if we really don’t think money is the answer, let’s stop asking for people to give it to us&#8221;</p>
<p>It perpetuates the notion that the only people who don&#8217;t have money are those who aren&#8217;t working for it and that any one is a lazy, whiny, irresponsible baby who thinks that government&#8217;s job is the protection and building of the commonwealth rather than private wealth.</p>
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